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Sunday, January 13, 2008

Ancient McGuire family tree


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The Kingdom of Orgiall






Castle4

Below are some of my thoughts concerning my matches with surnames of an Oriel origin.

In the Book of Ballymote, written in 1390AD - Cairpri Daim Airgit, King of Orgiall (Kingdom of Oriel) died 513AD.  This King of Oriel is five generations down from Colla da Chroich.  He had seven sons, Cormac from whom the Maguires descend; Nadsluaigh from whom the McMahons and Carrolls descend; and Daimine from whom the Boylans and Kellys descend.

Our McGuire group (see McGuire table below) also has the null value at DYS425; as do a number of other McMahons, McKennas and Carrolls, and even McAulay.  These surnames and several others (I also have matches with)  are said to descend from Colla da Chrioch as stated in the "Irish Pedigrees - John O'Hart ".  I also have a GD (genetic distance) of 2 out 12 with a Boylan; and some matches with the surname Kelly.

I'm guessing that particular mutations may have occurred somewhat differently in the various lines represented by the seven sons of the "King of Oriel".  My McGuire group perhaps more closely matches the genetic mutations that arose in the descendants of the son Nadsluaigh (from whom the McMahons and Carrolls descend).  I'm not saying that we've descended from Nadsluaigh... but that our McGuire mutations more closely resemble those that have naturally occurred in this side branch that gave birth to the McMahons and Carrolls.

Though... if the DYS425 null occurred in Nadsluaigh then maybe we (our McGuire group) are descended from him.  But that creates an interesting story too... not only did a McGuire line evolve from Cormac, but another may have also evolved from Nadsluaigh.   I say that because our groups' surname is McGuire not Carroll, or McMahon, etc.  The McGuire line may have existed in the Nadsluaigh line back there so many hundreds of years ago... if not, then our groups' surname would have been McMahon, Carroll or something similarly related.  That might explain why there are McMahons, Carrolls, and our McGuire participants with the same DYS425 null value, and other similar markers.

Our McGuire group

I have been watching and studying the DYS425 nulls between the Carrolls, McMahons, McKennas, and McGuires - since I had my DNA kit upgraded to 67 markers in 2006.  Since then, I have suspected that we may share a common ancestor… particularly when looking at those who share the same null at DYS 425. 
I believe it may be possible... that there are two McGuire groups represented in the DNA participants thus far tested.  And yes, our particular McGuire group may have a slightly different origin than the other group of McGuires.  I have a couple of theories... much further down that explains the two theories.
The null value mutation (DYS425) is passed on from generation to generation.  Is it possible that a common Colla ancestor passed this null value down?  There seems to be a fairly distinct pattern for the McMahons of Monaghan: 13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29; of which, I believe I am only one off from this.

From the McMahon website: http://www.mcmahonsofmonaghan.org/the_three_collas.html ... there were at least two origins for the McMahons listed; these were Ui Chremthainn and Ui Nadsluaig.  Pedar Livingstone, wrote in The Monaghan Story… These people were called the Ui Chremthainn (from whom the MacMahons descend).  … right up until the time of the O'Carroll Kings of Clan Nadsluaig (from whom the MacMahons also descend).


My McMahon matches:
McMahon - (Ysearch)
Genetic Distance to me (ECD9N)
Kit ID
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
SAGEW
McMahon
12
2
WPA7X
MacMahon
25
3
HVG6C
McMahon
25
3
NTHMK
McMahon
25
3
C3V5X
McMahon
25
4
8TNWA
McMahon
25
5
5Q5PD
McMahon
25
5
McMahon DNA Project - (Ft-DNA)
Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Kit no.
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
99317
McArdle
12
1
45125
McMahon
25
1
71754
McMahan
25
2
31799
MacMahon
25
3
18908
McMahon
25
3
McMahon DNA Project - (Ft-DNA)
DYS425 Nulls
Kit no.
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
64767
Mc Kenna
67
10
DYS425 Null
52246
Matthews
67
11
DYS425 Null
69356
McMahon
67
11
DYS425 Null
21156
Mc Kenna
67
11
DYS425 Null
13852
McMahon
67
13
DYS425 Null
 
My Carroll matches:
Carroll DNA Project - (Ft-DNA)
Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Kit no.
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
44330
O'Carroll
12
2
97759
Carroll
12
2
N50089
Carroll
12
2
N65343
Carroll
12
2
118450
Carroll
12
3
126432
Carroll
12
3
45690
Carroll
12
3
N47171
Carroll
12
3
N63005
Carroll
12
3
27175
Carroll
12
3
85173
Carroll
12
3
myFtDNA home page - matches
Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
Carroll
25
2
Harry Napoleon Carroll
Carroll
25
2
James Carl Carroll
Carroll
25
2
Jefferson E. Carroll
Carroll
25
2
Robert Carroll
Carroll DNA Project - (Ft-DNA)
DYS425 Nulls
Kit no.
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
32061
Carroll
67
8
DYS425 Null
101232
Carroll
67
9
DYS425 Null
30624
Carroll
67
9
DYS425 Null
91949
Carroll
67
10
DYS425 Null
N41845
Carroll
67
10
DYS425 Null
107119
Carroll
67
10
DYS425 Null
105523
Carroll
67
10
DYS425 Null
102450
Carroll
67
11
DYS425 Null
105592
Carroll
67
11
DYS425 Null
 
My McAuley matches:
McAuley / McCauley - (Ysearch)
Genetic Distance to me (ECD9N)
Kit ID
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
8W534
McCauley
12
3
Y83GC
McAuley
12
4
65KPN
McAuley
12
5
7ZEF9
McAulay
67
13
DYS425 Null
McAulay DNA Project - (Ft-DNA)
DYS425 Nulls
Kit no.
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
47703
McAuley 
67
8
DYS425 Null
112471
McAulay 
67
10
DYS425 Null
myFtDNA home page - matches
Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
McAuley
12
0
Thomas McAuley
McAuley
25
2
Thomas McAuley
McAulay
25
2
James Orlan McAulay
 
My Mc Kenna matches:
Mc Kenna - (Ysearch)
Genetic Distance to me (ECD9N)
Kit ID
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
3NPX3
Mc Kenna
67
9
DYS425 Null
4WVKD
Mc Kenna
67
10
DYS425 Null
NJBVE
Mc Kenna
67
10
DYS425 Null
KT3BH
Mc Kenna
67
11
DYS425 Null
Mc Kenna DNA Project - (Ft-DNA)
DYS425 Nulls
Kit no.
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
100576
Mc Kenna
67
9
DYS425 Null
64767
Mc Kenna
67
10
DYS425 Null
64768
Mc Kenna
67
10
DYS425 Null
21156
Mc Kenna
67
11
DYS425 Null
myFtDNA home page - matches
Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Surname
Markers
GD
Comments
Mc Kenna
25
2
John Michael Mc Kenna
Mc Kenna
25
2
Patrick Mc Kenna


Here's a table below,  showing our 17 McGuires that seem to be all related to a common ancestor, (and for those who have tested 67 markers), they also have the DYS425 null value... of which I am a part of this group.

My kit 23171 is listed first.  The last four McGuires listed in the table are the "loose matches" when compared with the rest of the participants.  The last four have a GD of 9, 11, 12, 12 from my kit markers when comparing at the 67 marker level. 

I have no doubt at all... that all 17 of our McGuires are related to each other.  And I say that even when some of our "loose McGuire matches" have a genetic distance of 12 compared to the tighter matching ones in our group.

 
McGuire - Genetic Distance (GD) table 
#
Participant
Kit No.
Markers
GD
Comments 
1
Josiah J. McGuire
23171
67
0
DYS425 Null;  DYF371x: 10c 12c 13c 14c
2
James S. McGuire
N7273
67
0
DYS425 Null
3
Leon M. McGuire
113714
67
1
DYS425 Null
4
Marvin C. McGuire
146421
67
1
DYS425 Null
5
Roger A. McGuire
111694
67
1
DYS425 Null
6
Delbert W. McGuire
20871
67
2
DYS425 Null
7
Irvin C. McGuire
21218
67
2
DYS425 Null
8
Stanley A. McGuire
33735
67
3
DYS425 Null
9
Michael K. McGuire
32277
37
1
(67 marker ordered) DYF371x: 10c 12c 13c 14c
10
Gerald W. McGuire
144055
37
1
 
11
Joseph E. McGuire
121248
12
0
 
12
David L. McGuire
30157
12
0
 
13
Emerson McGuire
44801
67
9
DYS425 Null
14
Mark C. McGuire
N35961
67
11
DYS425 Null
15
Henry V. McGuire
86421
67
11
DYS425 Null
16
Benny J. McGuire
108908
67
12
DYS425 Null
17
Howard D. McGuire
86542
67
12
DYS425 Null


And if there is a GD of up to 12 markers out of 67 that are different between our "close matches" and our "loose matches" wouldn't that represent quite a few years back to a common ancestor between these participants above?  One might wonder, if all the McGuires (or nearly all) that are represented on at ft-dna's "McGuire Surname DNA Project" are probably all related... with the degree of mutations found in my group above.  And if not, then one might have to explain how my group of 17 McGuires have the null value and the others do not.  When looking at the mutation rates of the 17 in my group, one would have to assume that the common null value marker in our group must have happened several; if not many hundreds of years ago.  So why aren't more McGuires showing the same null, one might ask?  I can possibly think of a couple of different theories that may explain it.

Two theories:

1.  Maybe the "King of Oriel" had this null... but then over the years some of his descendants had a "mutation reversal" on the DYS425 null.  Reversal mutations can happen just as they do otherwise in normal mutations... as I have read in sources.

The other McGuires (descendants of Cormac) may have experienced the mutation reversal back to the common value of 12 for DYS425.  And then in the case of my McGuire line, the null value never reversed back to the maker value of 12.  This situation may have occurred in the much the same way for several other Carroll and McMahon lines, or other surnames that are said to descend from "King of Oriel".

2.  Or perhaps Nadsluaigh (a son of the Oriel King) or one of his descendants may have started the null at DYS425.  And that might explain why there are some McMahons, Carrolls, McGuires, and McKennas… with this same shared null.  The other McGuires in the project, if they were evolved from Cormac, would not have the DYS425 mutation.  The null reversal would likely need to happen in this theory as well, for some of the different surnames.
Web site familypursuit.com is displaying our different family lines! Thank you for visiting.