Ancient McGuire family tree

The Kingdom of Orgiall

Below are some of my thoughts concerning my matches with surnames of an Oriel origin.

In the Book of Ballymote, written in 1390AD - Cairpri Daim Airgit, King of Orgiall (Kingdom of Oriel) died 513AD.  This King of Oriel is five generations down from Colla da Chroich.  He had seven sons, Cormac from whom the Maguires descend; Nadsluaigh from whom the McMahons and Carrolls descend; and Daimine from whom the Boylans and Kellys descend.

Our McGuire group (see McGuire table below) also has the null value at DYS425; as do a number of other McMahons, McKennas and Carrolls, and even McAulay.  These surnames and several others (I also have matches with)  are said to descend from Colla da Chrioch as stated in the "Irish Pedigrees - John O'Hart ".  I also have a GD (genetic distance) of 2 out 12 with a Boylan; and some matches with the surname Kelly.

I'm guessing that particular mutations may have occurred somewhat differently in the various lines represented by the seven sons of the "King of Oriel".  My McGuire group perhaps more closely matches the genetic mutations that arose in the descendants of the son Nadsluaigh (from whom the McMahons and Carrolls descend).  I'm not saying that we've descended from Nadsluaigh... but that our McGuire mutations more closely resemble those that have naturally occurred in this side branch that gave birth to the McMahons and Carrolls.

Though... if the DYS425 null occurred in Nadsluaigh then maybe we (our McGuire group) are descended from him.  But that creates an interesting story too... not only did a McGuire line evolve from Cormac, but another may have also evolved from Nadsluaigh.   I say that because our groups' surname is McGuire not Carroll, or McMahon, etc.  The McGuire line may have existed in the Nadsluaigh line back there so many hundreds of years ago... if not, then our groups' surname would have been McMahon, Carroll or something similarly related.  That might explain why there are McMahons, Carrolls, and our McGuire participants with the same DYS425 null value, and other similar markers.

Our McGuire group

I have been watching and studying the DYS425 nulls between the Carrolls, McMahons, McKennas, and McGuires - since I had my DNA kit upgraded to 67 markers in 2006.  Since then, I have suspected that we may share a common ancestor… particularly when looking at those who share the same null at DYS 425. 

I believe it may be possible... that there are two McGuire groups represented in the DNA participants thus far tested.  And yes, our particular McGuire group may have a slightly different origin than the other group of McGuires.  I have a couple of theories... much further down that explains the two theories.

The null value mutation (DYS425) is passed on from generation to generation.  Is it possible that a common Colla ancestor passed this null value down?  There seems to be a fairly distinct pattern for the McMahons of Monaghan: 13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29; of which, I believe I am only one off from this.

From the McMahon website: http://www.mcmahonsofmonaghan.org/the_three_collas.html ... there were at least two origins for the McMahons listed; these were Ui Chremthainn and Ui Nadsluaig.  Pedar Livingstone, wrote in The Monaghan Story… These people were called the Ui Chremthainn (from whom the MacMahons descend).  … right up until the time of the O'Carroll Kings of Clan Nadsluaig (from whom the MacMahons also descend).

My McMahon matches:

McMahon - (Ysearch) Genetic Distance to me (ECD9N)
Kit ID	Surname	Markers	GD	Comments
SAGEW	McMahon	12	2
WPA7X	MacMahon	25	3
HVG6C	McMahon	25	3
NTHMK	McMahon	25	3
C3V5X	McMahon	25	4
8TNWA	McMahon	25	5
5Q5PD	McMahon	25	5
McMahon DNA Project - (Ft-DNA) Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Kit no.	Surname	Markers	GD	Comments
99317	McArdle	12	1
45125	McMahon	25	1
71754	McMahan	25	2
31799	MacMahon	25	3
18908	McMahon	25	3
McMahon DNA Project - (Ft-DNA) DYS425 Nulls
Kit no.	Surname	Markers	GD	Comments
64767	Mc Kenna	67	10	DYS425 Null
52246	Matthews	67	11	DYS425 Null
69356	McMahon	67	11	DYS425 Null
21156	Mc Kenna	67	11	DYS425 Null
13852	McMahon	67	13	DYS425 Null

 

My Carroll matches:

Carroll DNA Project - (Ft-DNA) Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Kit no.	Surname	Markers	GD	Comments
44330	O'Carroll	12	2
97759	Carroll	12	2
N50089	Carroll	12	2
N65343	Carroll	12	2
118450	Carroll	12	3
126432	Carroll	12	3
45690	Carroll	12	3
N47171	Carroll	12	3
N63005	Carroll	12	3
27175	Carroll	12	3
85173	Carroll	12	3
myFtDNA home page - matches Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Surname		Markers	GD	Comments
Carroll		25	2	Harry Napoleon Carroll
Carroll		25	2	James Carl Carroll
Carroll		25	2	Jefferson E. Carroll
Carroll		25	2	Robert Carroll
Carroll DNA Project - (Ft-DNA) DYS425 Nulls
Kit no.	Surname	Markers	GD	Comments
32061	Carroll	67	8	DYS425 Null
101232	Carroll	67	9	DYS425 Null
30624	Carroll	67	9	DYS425 Null
91949	Carroll	67	10	DYS425 Null
N41845	Carroll	67	10	DYS425 Null
107119	Carroll	67	10	DYS425 Null
105523	Carroll	67	10	DYS425 Null
102450	Carroll	67	11	DYS425 Null
105592	Carroll	67	11	DYS425 Null

 

My McAuley matches:

McAuley / McCauley - (Ysearch) Genetic Distance to me (ECD9N)
Kit ID	Surname	Markers	GD	Comments
8W534	McCauley	12	3
Y83GC	McAuley	12	4
65KPN	McAuley	12	5
7ZEF9	McAulay	67	13	DYS425 Null
McAulay DNA Project - (Ft-DNA) DYS425 Nulls
Kit no.	Surname	Markers	GD	Comments
47703	McAuley	67	8	DYS425 Null
112471	McAulay	67	10	DYS425 Null
myFtDNA home page - matches Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Surname		Markers	GD	Comments
McAuley		12	0	Thomas McAuley
McAuley		25	2	Thomas McAuley
McAulay		25	2	James Orlan McAulay

 

My Mc Kenna matches:

Mc Kenna - (Ysearch) Genetic Distance to me (ECD9N)
Kit ID	Surname	Markers	GD	Comments
3NPX3	Mc Kenna	67	9	DYS425 Null
4WVKD	Mc Kenna	67	10	DYS425 Null
NJBVE	Mc Kenna	67	10	DYS425 Null
KT3BH	Mc Kenna	67	11	DYS425 Null
Mc Kenna DNA Project - (Ft-DNA) DYS425 Nulls
Kit no.	Surname	Markers	GD	Comments
100576	Mc Kenna	67	9	DYS425 Null
64767	Mc Kenna	67	10	DYS425 Null
64768	Mc Kenna	67	10	DYS425 Null
21156	Mc Kenna	67	11	DYS425 Null
myFtDNA home page - matches Genetic Distance to me (23171)
Surname		Markers	GD	Comments
Mc Kenna		25	2	John Michael Mc Kenna
Mc Kenna		25	2	Patrick Mc Kenna

Here's a table below,  showing our 17 McGuires that seem to be all related to a common ancestor, (and for those who have tested 67 markers), they also have the DYS425 null value... of which I am a part of this group.

My kit 23171 is listed first.  The last four McGuires listed in the table are the "loose matches" when compared with the rest of the participants.  The last four have a GD of 9, 11, 12, 12 from my kit markers when comparing at the 67 marker level. 

I have no doubt at all... that all 17 of our McGuires are related to each other.  And I say that even when some of our "loose McGuire matches" have a genetic distance of 12 compared to the tighter matching ones in our group.

 

McGuire - Genetic Distance (GD) table
#	Participant	Kit No.	Markers	GD	Comments
1	Josiah J. McGuire	23171	67	0	DYS425 Null;  DYF371x: 10c 12c 13c 14c
2	James S. McGuire	N7273	67	0	DYS425 Null
3	Leon M. McGuire	113714	67	1	DYS425 Null
4	Marvin C. McGuire	146421	67	1	DYS425 Null
5	Roger A. McGuire	111694	67	1	DYS425 Null
6	Delbert W. McGuire	20871	67	2	DYS425 Null
7	Irvin C. McGuire	21218	67	2	DYS425 Null
8	Stanley A. McGuire	33735	67	3	DYS425 Null
9	Michael K. McGuire	32277	37	1	(67 marker ordered) DYF371x: 10c 12c 13c 14c
10	Gerald W. McGuire	144055	37	1
11	Joseph E. McGuire	121248	12	0
12	David L. McGuire	30157	12	0
13	Emerson McGuire	44801	67	9	DYS425 Null
14	Mark C. McGuire	N35961	67	11	DYS425 Null
15	Henry V. McGuire	86421	67	11	DYS425 Null
16	Benny J. McGuire	108908	67	12	DYS425 Null
17	Howard D. McGuire	86542	67	12	DYS425 Null

And if there is a GD of up to 12 markers out of 67 that are different between our "close matches" and our "loose matches" wouldn't that represent quite a few years back to a common ancestor between these participants above?  One might wonder, if all the McGuires (or nearly all) that are represented on at ft-dna's "McGuire Surname DNA Project" are probably all related... with the degree of mutations found in my group above.  And if not, then one might have to explain how my group of 17 McGuires have the null value and the others do not.  When looking at the mutation rates of the 17 in my group, one would have to assume that the common null value marker in our group must have happened several; if not many hundreds of years ago.  So why aren't more McGuires showing the same null, one might ask?  I can possibly think of a couple of different theories that may explain it.

Two theories:

1.  Maybe the "King of Oriel" had this null... but then over the years some of his descendants had a "mutation reversal" on the DYS425 null.  Reversal mutations can happen just as they do otherwise in normal mutations... as I have read in sources.

The other McGuires (descendants of Cormac) may have experienced the mutation reversal back to the common value of 12 for DYS425.  And then in the case of my McGuire line, the null value never reversed back to the maker value of 12.  This situation may have occurred in the much the same way for several other Carroll and McMahon lines, or other surnames that are said to descend from "King of Oriel".

2.  Or perhaps Nadsluaigh (a son of the Oriel King) or one of his descendants may have started the null at DYS425.  And that might explain why there are some McMahons, Carrolls, McGuires, and McKennas… with this same shared null.  The other McGuires in the project, if they were evolved from Cormac, would not have the DYS425 mutation.  The null reversal would likely need to happen in this theory as well, for some of the different surnames.